<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.18812">
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Read this companion (or antidote) to The Nation.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><A
href="http://www.notthenation.com/pages/news/getnews.php?id=822.html">http://www.notthenation.com/pages/news/getnews.php?id=822.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=michael.montesano@gmail.com
href="mailto:michael.montesano@gmail.com">Michael Montesano</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 09, 2009 10:57
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Tlc] Fwd: Stephen Young
interview, in THE NATION</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>---------- Forwarded message ----------<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">EDITOR'S
PICK</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 24pt">Why Thaksin did
not have the moral legitimacy to lead?</SPAN></B></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">THE
NATION</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> September
10, 2009</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 18pt">In an exclusive
interview with Nation editor-in-chief Suthichai Yoon, Professor Stephen Young
- credited among those who discovered the bronze-age site of Ban Chiang in
northeastern Thailand in 1966 (now a Unesco world-heritage site) - deplores
the "ridiculous" national division he insists has resulted from Thaksin
Shinawatra's "imperial" ambition. </SPAN></B></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">(This is the
complete stories with two parts of interviews integrated. If you have read the
first part yesterday, please browse the the second part
below.)</SPAN></I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></B> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Suthichai Yoon:
Professor Young, you've been watching Thai politics closely, the red shirts,
the yellow shirts, and of course you are part of Thailand as well. You grew up
here, you went to the international school here. Looking from afar now, what
do you think of Thailand; does it still have a future?</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Professor Young:
Well, I think that's the right question to ask. If you look at Thailand from
afar, most foreigners don't know much about what's going on. The Western idea,
the Western press coverage is very superficial.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></B> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">SY: Even the New
York Times?</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">PY: Yes, the New
York Times especially. The Washington Post. The Economist. Foreigners don't
know the way the Thais think. I'm more worried now about Thailand than ever
before. When I first came here in 1961, that was 48 years ago, and my father
was the American ambassador, we had a wonderful family relationship with
Thailand. Maybe different from many foreigners. I don't speak Thai so well
anymore, but I have a feeling that there's something special to us, to our
family, my father, my mother, or myself, my brother, my sister about Thailand.
We care about Thailand. My dad was close to His Majesty, close to [ex-PM Field
Marshal] Sarit [Thanarat], and in 1961 there was this [big] gap between the
Bangkok elite and the rural poor, a real gap. So, today, 2009, when I hear
the</SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><A
href="http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/adsearch.php?keyword=+red+shirts+"
target=_blank> red shirts </A></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">say there's a gap
between Bangkok and ban nok [upcountry], I think it's ridiculous. Today,
there's a gap, but in 1961 it was much bigger. </SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">I just went back
to Ban Chiang. When I went there 43 years ago, there was no electricity, no
flush toilet, and if you needed hot water, you had to boil it. Chicken was too
expensive. You had to eat little fish from the pond. Today there's
electricity, flush toilets, hot water and ATM machines. Most of the houses
have Internet. </SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></B> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">SY: At that time,
there wasn't even a telephone.</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">PY: No telephone.
Radios. I remember we had radios with batteries. The strongest station was
communist Chinese, broadcasting Chinese propaganda, so I remembered sitting in
Ban Chiang listening to Chinese communist propaganda, and in Thai. </SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></B> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">SY: From
Beijing?</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">PY: >From Beijing.
Radio Beijing. Today it's television, international television. The people are
watching soccer games in Europe. The people have cell phones. A lady who was
with me was calling another lady to tell the car to pick me up at the airport.
This is modern Thailand. So many changes. In 1961 it was my dad, with the
passion of His Majesty and Field Marshal Sarit. He was a dictator, a military
dictator, he was a tough guy, but he cared about the people, especially Isaan
[the Northeast], and His Majesty also cared about Isaan. So the government
began all these programmes. The roads in Ban Chiang are all cement. Before, it
was dirt road. Thailand has done so much and I think in particular, the people
in Bangkok, the Bangkok elite. In particular His Majesty deserves appreciation
for what he's done for Thailand. So when I hear all these strange things about
Thailand not having this and that, the need to change, some intellectuals want
to run a revolution or something, I think this is crazy. It makes no sense to
me.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></B> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">SY: Why do you
think they have this rumbling about change?</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">PY: My feeling,
quite frankly, is that this goes back to the ambition of one man.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></B> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">SY:
Thaksin?</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">PY: Thaksin. And
I ask myself why is he such a threat to Thailand?</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></B> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">SY: You knew him
before?</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">PY: No. Only by
reputation. When I first heard of him, when he started the Shin Corporation,
what I heard was: he's a police major who got a contract from the government
for telephones after one of the coups. Now I ask myself, back then, 1993,
something like that, how do you get a contract from the government? What do
you have to do to get a contract? And I noticed Khun</SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><A
href="http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/adsearch.php?keyword=+Thaksin+"
target=_blank> Thaksin </A></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">made more money,
became more wealthy, all because he has a government licence.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></B> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">SY: A
monopoly.</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">PY: A monopoly,
not because he was out there working like other people. He had a monopoly that
the government gave him. The Thai people represented by the government gave
him an exclusive, elitist, monopolistic special privilege. This is
aristocracy. This is elitism. This is not a man who started poor in a village
and worked his way up. He has special connections and I've seen him use many
special connections. But I've never seen Thai society so divided. Even the
divisions over the West during the time of King Rama 4 and 5 were not this
serious, neither was the division over the communists. The communists failed
in Thailand. They could not divide the Thai people. </SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Thaksin has
divided the Thai people and this is sad. The Thai people should not be so
divided and angry. Even my family friends, the family is divided. Some of the
brothers and sisters are yellow, and some are red. And around the dinner
table, they argue and get angry. So I think ... sabai ... where did it
go?</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></B> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">SY: But<A
href="http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/adsearch.php?keyword=+Thaksin+"
target=_blank> Thaksin </A>claimed that he changed the face of Thai politics.
He made the masses, the rural people, speak up for the first time. It's the
first time they benefited from politics. They can touch, consume and eat
politics.</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">PY: I think
that's ridiculous. Rural people in their communities have always had their
patrons. They can always have some influence in this group and that group. I
have my view, my patron. I look up to you, you take care of me. You are at the
provincial level and you reach the Bangkok level, so I can get it to the
Bangkok level only through you. This has been true for a long time.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Thaksin is in
exile. He wants a pardon, he wants his money back, he doesn't want the
conviction. Other Thai political leaders have not acted like that, if you look
back. </SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></B> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">SY: All the way
back to Pridi Panomyong?</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">PY: Before that.
We had the coup of 1932 and Prince Nakornsawan, the powerful Chakri prince,
was asked to leave. He did, and he died in exile and never came back. His
Majesty King Prachatipok felt there was a new situation and he abdicated. He
went to England. He died in England. At his cremation, in 1941 I think, there
were his queen and several relatives. No complaints. Pridi: He felt the
situation changed. He left. General Pao, the powerful police general, left
when Sarit took over and did not come back. Sarit, after he died, there was an
argument how much money he made and the government took the money back. The
family did not argue. Khun Thanom lost his money and went into exile. So I ask
myself why is</SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><A
href="http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/adsearch.php?keyword=+Thaksin+"
target=_blank> Thaksin </A></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">different? Why
doesn't he think like a Thai?</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></B> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">SY:
Why?</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">PY: I think it's
because he's not really a Thai Thai. He has other ideas in his head. He does
not say kreng jai. He does not think about merit and sin. He thinks about how
he can be a powerful man. He wants to be the leader of everybody, the big boss
of everybody. This kind of thinking to me reflects not Thai Buddhism, but
Chinese imperial thinking. The imperial thinking of the Chinese emperor. The
Chinese theory. If you read about this, and I've studied a lot about it, we
see this thinking.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">So everything
that</SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><A
href="http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/adsearch.php?keyword=+Thaksin+"
target=_blank> Thaksin </A></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">does, how he ran
his government, how he put his money here and there, it's just like 2,000
years ago. Same thinking. This idea was that, above the earth is heaven, or
tian, and there's one man- and underneath is everybody else. And
when</SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><A
href="http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/adsearch.php?keyword=+Thaksin+"
target=_blank> Thaksin </A></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">wants to control
the government, police, army, judges, businesses, TV, newspapers - that's
bringing everything under him. No Thai leader in history has ever tried to do
this. King Naresuen never tried to do this. King Rama I didn't try to do this.
This is something new and different. Therefore, the Thai people are divided
over this. Something new was added by Thaksin.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></I> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">(This is
the second of a two-part series. See the full version of the interview on
the Nation Channel at 2pm this Friday.)</SPAN></I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></B> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">SY: When Western
journalists write about Thaksin, they say he is still the most popular man
among the rural people, that the poor and the underprivileged look upon him as
their saviour.</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">PY: Again, that's
foreigners who don't understand Thailand. It's clear</SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><A
href="http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/adsearch.php?keyword=+Thaksin+"
target=_blank> Thaksin </A></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">still has many
followers, but in Thailand the small people have always looked up to somebody.
They always have some sort of a patron.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></B> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">SY: But<A
href="http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/adsearch.php?keyword=+Thaksin+"
target=_blank> Thaksin </A>wanted to cut all those levels, those tiers out, so
that he could rule directly.</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">PY: Again,
Thaksin's idea is a cosmic Chinese idea about "I'm a magical person". I
understand that he believes in fortune-tellers. He had some fortune-teller in
Chiang Mai who said he alone was the big man and everyone worked under him.
It's not the old-fashioned type of partnership. Everyone worked for Thaksin.
That's not American loyalty. That's just saying that if you are a powerful
man, and have lots of money and you'll give me some money, then I'll take the
money. If you use that power of money to undermine the constitution and the
law, to say bad things about other people, then it's unethical. </SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></B> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">SY: Is it
democratic?</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">PY: The question
is democracy without ethics, is that good? I would argue yes, it's democratic,
but without ethics, or morality, then it's bad. The point is, democracy here
is the not the goal; justice is the goal. In Western thinking, going back to
Aristotle, if you are democratic but corrupt, if you abuse people, what we
call the tyranny of the people, you are immoral, you are unjust; it's a bad
system. What Aristotle said is, every system, whether it's monarchy,
aristocracy or democracy, you must have law and ethics and justice to control
abusive power. You don't want rulers to seek power and money for themselves.
So I look at</SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><A
href="http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/adsearch.php?keyword=+Thaksin+"
target=_blank> Thaksin </A></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">and I ask, where
does his money come from? It comes from the Thai people, from special
relationships. He used the government and politics in many ways to make
himself wealthy. </SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></B> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">SY: In democracy,
he says he believes in elections, so every time you challenge him, he will say
let's go to the people and have an election. That will prove everything and
that's democracy.</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">PY: It proves
nothing. The communists have elections. Stalin had elections. Hitler had
elections. An example of where Thailand could go wrong is provided by Juan
Peron in Argentina. And</SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><A
href="http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/adsearch.php?keyword=+Thaksin+"
target=_blank> Thaksin </A></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">is closer to the
dictators of Latin America than to anybody in Thai history. We see it now with
Chavez. They hold elections. They go to the poor people. They blame the rich.
They say, poor people, vote for me, I'll punish the rich. We'll take money
from the rich and give it to you. So they mobilise 50 per cent of the poor
people to attack 30 per cent. Argentina in the 1930s, before Juan Peron, was a
very wealthy country. </SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></B> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">SY: He was very
popular. Poor people liked him.</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">PY: Poor people
liked him but he ruined the economy. He created a dictator political party and
now, 70 years later, Argentina still has difficulties. It's not a wealthy
country and they are split, divided. They fight in politics. That may happen
to Thailand if you have populism. The issue is not that</SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><A
href="http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/adsearch.php?keyword=+Thaksin+"
target=_blank> Thaksin </A></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">can get a
majority vote. The issue is who can provide social justice, who can govern
with ethics, who can have checks and balances, who can listen to the people,
who can live under the law - and I see that Thai people are still arguing
about this. It makes me so sad because Thailand should be happy. Thailand has
so many good things, like Buddhism. And Thai people are good people.
</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">The Constitution
of 1997 was a good one, and what happened? Somebody with money came in and,
like a mouse, took away all the cheese. The goodness of the Constitution
disappears and the people are upset. They protest. He refused to compromise.
Coup d'etat. People don't like this and you have the cycle going on for three
years now. That's a long time.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></B> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">SY:<A
href="http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/adsearch.php?keyword=+Thaksin+"
target=_blank> Thaksin </A>said the September 2006 coup got rid of him and
since then he has been mistreated all along, and the rule of law was not
there; the present powers used a double standard against him. He said a few
weeks ago that he never mistreated anybody, that he alone has been mistreated.
He's the victim.</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">PY: I've heard
him say this for a long time. I don't see how you can be a victim when you can
accumulate 2 billion dollars in assets inside Thailand, and we don't know how
much money he had outside. Last year, there was a newspaper story that said he
had 1.5 billion US dollars outside Thailand, most of which he lost in the
financial crisis. </SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">I tell myself,
let's take the 2 billion dollars he has inside Thailand. If you have that kind
of money, why are you a victim? Politics is not about giving you a chance to
make lots of money, it's about serving the people, and if the people don't
want you anymore, you retire, like those other leaders who left Thailand when
politics changed. </SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Now the coup
violated the norm of the constitution, but I think there's an argument. Before
that,</SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><A
href="http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/adsearch.php?keyword=+Thaksin+"
target=_blank> Thaksin </A></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">had violated the
spirit of the Constitution and was undermining the law, and thereby raised
questions about his legitimacy. He compromised his own legitimacy. People took
to the streets, saying the way he used power was beyond the constitution. His
excesses started a process of decline and the coup was part of the decline. So
we look at the cause and not the coup. We look at what caused the coup - and
that was his pattern of government.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></B> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">SY: Do you agree
with the coup?</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">PY: At the time,
my feeling was one of sadness, because what were the choices for Thailand. If
you continued with Thaksin, you would end up with this notion of Chinese
dictatorship. That's not good for Thailand, but if you went with the coup,
it's against the constitution. And you don't know what's going to happen. When
Thailand has two very bad choices, I'm very sad. Very sad.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></B> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">SY: Thailand
shouldn't be put in that position.</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">PY: It shouldn't.
And I then go to who put Thailand in that position. It wasn't the military, it
wasn't Abhisit. It wasn't Privy Council Chief Prem; none of these people. It
was one guy and his team.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></B> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">SY:<A
href="http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/adsearch.php?keyword=+Thaksin+"
target=_blank> Thaksin </A>blamed General Prem for all his troubles
too.</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">PY:</SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><A
href="http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/adsearch.php?keyword=+Thaksin+"
target=_blank> Thaksin </A></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">is a very clever
man. He knows the heart of the Thai people. He knows what to say to get the
Thai people to maybe think like him. To me, in English, that's what we call a
demagogue. This is a person who is not sincere. He studies you and your
emotions and tells you what you want to hear, not because he likes you and
cares about you, but because he wants something from you. What</SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><A
href="http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/adsearch.php?keyword=+Thaksin+"
target=_blank> Thaksin </A></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">wanted from you
is your vote or your loyalty, or for you to say bad things about the yellow
shirts. This is divisive politics. </SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></B> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">SY:<A
href="http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/adsearch.php?keyword=+Thaksin+"
target=_blank> Thaksin </A>said those against him were people who lost
interest because he was in power. He said he tried to bring justice to
Thailand and make things equal, so those affected by his good intentions are
now up against him.</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">PY: First of all,
I accept that</SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><A
href="http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/adsearch.php?keyword=+Thaksin+"
target=_blank> Thaksin </A></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">might have had
good intentions. I don't know the man. I can only judge the man by his
actions. And his actions were to bring the power of everything under him,
where he is the boss. He said he took away power from those people because
they were greedy, bad people, they were aristocratic, elite, and didn't care
about people.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></B> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">SY: "Ammat" (Top
royal advisers).</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">PY: Well, who has
more ammats? He has more. He's the man of ammat. He's not a man of clout. He
has good fortune but doesn't have clout. Well, when I say he doesn't have
clout, I use the word in an old-fashioned way. The true meaning is that the
person must have good education, a moral foundation, a past life of a good
person - and you have moral authority, moral legitimacy that comes from
self-control and respect for others. So</SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><A
href="http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/adsearch.php?keyword=+Thaksin+"
target=_blank> Thaksin </A></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">doesn't have
clout [baramee]; but he has vassana [good fortune], so he uses power. He has
got to take power away from the people. </SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">The contributions
of General Prem in the 1980s were very constructive. I think General Prem
deserved some appreciation and respect. He's an older man now but he moved
Thailand in the period of half democracy. He took over from a tradition of
violence, military dictatorship, and moved Thailand towards half democracy.
It's an evolution. It's an important evolution. </SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">If Khun Prem had
not done that when there was a crisis in 1991, 1992 with General Suchinda,
there would be no middle class, because I think General Suchinda thought he
could win with the coup. He was surprised because the Thai people didn't like
it.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></I> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Professor Stephen
B Young is the global executive director of the Caux Round Table and an
editorial commentator for Twin Cities Daily Planet newswire. He was educated
at the International School Bangkok, Harvard College (graduating Magna Cum
Laud) and Harvard Law School (graduating Cum Laud). In 1966 he discovered the
bronze-age site of Ban Chiang in northeastern Thailand, which is now a Unesco
world-heritage site. He was a former assistant dean at Harvard Law School and
a former dean of Hamline University School of Law. He is widely recognised for
his knowledge of Asian history and politics, and has taught at various
prestigious institutes. His articles have been published in well-known
newspapers including the New York Times</SPAN></I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; COLOR: #373737; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT color=#000000 size=3
face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </P></DIV></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Tlc mailing
list<BR>Tlc@lists.ucr.edu<BR>http://lists.ucr.edu/mailman/listinfo/tlc<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>