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<H2>FT interview transcript: Thaksin Shinawatra </H2>
<P>Published: March 3 2008 21:35 | Last updated: March 3 2008 21:35</P></DIV>
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<P><I>Amy Kazmin, the FT's South-East Asia Correspondent, interviewed Thaksin
Shinawatra, Thailand's former prime minister, in Bangkok on Monday, March 3,
2008. Below is an edited transcript of their conversation:</I></P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FINANCIAL TIMES: </STRONG></SPAN>Many people
are now looking at Thailand and wondering what is going to happen next. The Thai
economy has really seemed to struggle over the last two years. What do you think
Thailand needs to do now to revive the economy and restore foreign investor
confidence? </P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>THAKSIN SHINAWATRA:</STRONG></SPAN> Confidence
is the key. It's quite difficult after a coup d'etat, the political uncertainty
is going to be a big question for the investor, especially [the] foreign
investor [who knows] little about the nature of Thai politics. That will be a
big obstacle for bringing back confidence.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT: </STRONG></SPAN>Even now?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS:</STRONG></SPAN> Even now. We still need to
do a lot more. When you go out for [a] road show, the investor will ask the
question of political stability. We have to prove ourselves. The Thai has to
help each other to bring back real reconciliation. And also, the local press
especially, we have to present the news in a more constructive way. If the local
press is not constructive how will the foreign press be constructive? They are
just following what is happening in the local press.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT:</STRONG></SPAN> What do you mean by
constructive?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS:</STRONG></SPAN> Constructive – it means
[bringing] back the reconciliation, trying to avoid small things about having
conflict among the Thai. That will create a picture of political stability, and
then the confidence will be there. That is the prerequisite to bring back
economic confidence. I have been travelling a lot and have met with a lot of
investors world wide. And the question of political stability is the
prerequisite for economic confidence.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT:</STRONG></SPAN> We'll come back to that,
but in terms of economic policy specifically, what do you think needs to be
done?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS:</STRONG></SPAN> We have to take the
opportunities of a strong baht and weaker dollar to import capital goods and
machinery to upgrade our production. We have been using old technology for many
years. So it is now the time to invest. The government has to facilitate the
import of more of the capital goods and machinery to upgrade our production
quality. That is what we should do now, not just complain about [a] strong baht
and weaker dollar. …We are an export-led growth economy. [The] domestic economy
is not that [developed] yet, [domestic] consumption is not that much yet. We
import so little, we have [a trade] surplus [and] it adds to the stronger baht.
We have to take this opportunity to import and invest. Especially in the
mega-projects. It's time to invest now. We have quite healthy reserves. We
should invest now.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT:</STRONG></SPAN> How well positioned do you
think Thailand is, as an export-oriented economy, now to ride out a US economic
slowdown?</P>
<P>TS: Luckily, during my administration we diversified the market, we
diversified the [range] of products that we export. But the US is still our
major market. [An] economic slowdown in [the] US will definitely affect [us].
But luckily the products we export to US markets, are the 'basic need' products,
so we should be able to survive. Another thing we have to be careful [of] is
that the privileges that we receive on our exports to the US should not be
affected. … We also have to watch after the [US] election how the new government
will [pursue] free trade agreements [such as the one Thailand is eager to
have].</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT:</STRONG></SPAN> Are you concerned that
some of the privileges Thai exports enjoy could be revoked because of Thailand's
compulsory licensing of US pharmaceutical products?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS: </STRONG></SPAN>We have to be careful on
every move. The US government is really pushed by the private sector. Some big
private sector is [the] pharmaceutical [industry] they are a big association
pushing the US government a lot. … For compulsory licensing, we have to be very
cautious. For compulsory, it means it's really necessary, not just usual. So we
have to be very careful how we move on that.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT: </STRONG></SPAN>How much damage do you
think was done to the Thai economy by the last two years of political
turbulence? </P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS: </STRONG></SPAN>Confidence is very
expensive economically. When it's gone it will cost a lot of money to bring it
back – and time, not just money. People don't understand well enough the worth
of confidence.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT: </STRONG></SPAN>What can be done to bring
back confidence in Thailand?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS: </STRONG></SPAN>We have to start with the
consumer confidence. You have to inject the money down to the grassroots levels,
so their spending will start to turn. When consumer confidence starts, we will
have to bring local investor confidence – then the foreign investor will come.
Tourism, or service industry, is one of the main income streams, and we have to
revive it.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT: </STRONG></SPAN>You don't think just the
fact that Thailand has had an election and installed an elected government is
enough?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS: </STRONG></SPAN>Not enough! Not enough!
Not enough!</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT: </STRONG></SPAN>[Finance Minister]
Surapong Suebwonglee has said he would like you to advise him on the economy,
and you clearly have strong ideas about what needs to be done about the economy.
...</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS:</STRONG></SPAN> You know, giving advice –
it may create obligation on both sides. … I am more senior to him. If I give
advice and he [doesn't] take my advice, I will feel bad. And if he didn't take
my advice, he will feel bad as well. Why don't I be a lecturer instead of
advisor? I can be a lecturer not just for him, but for the investors, or the
business sector, or the economic teams of the government. If they think I can
give some lecture about the global economy, and how its' linked to the Thai
economy, those things, I can give the lecture. After I give the lecture there is
no obligation on both sides. They don't have to do whatever I [say], they can
think on their own and mix their ideas.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT:</STRONG></SPAN> So are you turning down
his request to be an advisor?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS:</STRONG></SPAN> I don't think I should be.
I don't want to get involved in politics. When I don't want to get involved in
politics – why should I take the advisory position?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT:</STRONG></SPAN> You talked about the
importance of political stability in a factor restoring confidence. How do you
assess Thailand's prospects for political stability?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS:</STRONG></SPAN> I think it will be better
now. I have started to talk with my former opponents, especially military
people, and they all now – especially myself, we forgive everything, we don't
feel any antagonism to others. …. I forgive everyone – and I am not involved in
politics. So don't worry about me. And I would ask the press – don't worry about
where I am going, what I am doing. I am not a public figure any more.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT: </STRONG></SPAN>Many people were very
shocked at the September 2006 military coup because they thought that Thailand
had put the era of military coup behind it. Do you feel now that there is a risk
of military coup in the future? Or do you think this was the last coup?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS: </STRONG></SPAN>I believe always that
democracy is the best. There should not be any hiccup in democracy development
in any country. When you start the democratic process, you should continue until
it matures. If you take it back, it's difficult to bring back confidence. During
my administration, I believe there should not be any coup. But still it can
happen. So Thailand is different. When there is a coup it is not that bad in
terms of the impact both domestically and internationally. Even if we have a
coup, the Thai monarchy is very strong, very well respected domestically and
internationally. So that is different than other countries. We have some impact
definitely but it's not that much when compared with other countries. It's
difficult to predict there will be no coup in the future. But I cannot think
about the near future. It might be later on. But it will be quite many years,
not now.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT:</STRONG></SPAN> Why do you feel it is
unlikely to happen now? Some of your political allies are concerned that there
is still a risk... </P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS: </STRONG></SPAN>The country is quite
fragile now. </P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT: </STRONG></SPAN>Fragile?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS: </STRONG></SPAN>If you were to have
another coup, it will cost the country too much. …If it were to be a near future
coup, the country is still very fragile. … That is dangerous…</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT: </STRONG></SPAN>Do you think the military
has learned any lessons from this coup?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS: </STRONG></SPAN>What [do you] mean by
military? Military means the whole group of soldiers. … It [did] not really
benefit the military. …Subordinates just [did] whatever their boss said. It
depends on the top people – a few of them.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT: </STRONG></SPAN>And those who led this
coup?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS: </STRONG></SPAN>Some have retired; some
are about to retire. So they will enjoy their lives with their families.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT:</STRONG></SPAN> Do you think the balance
of power between civilian politicians and the military has changed as a result
of the coup?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS: </STRONG></SPAN>No. This constitution
[introduced by the military-backed government last year] … has to be changed.
Otherwise the respect of the people's rights is not there. You don't regard
democracy as the people power. …The constitution is like the plan to build a
house. Before you build a good house, you have to have a good plan. The good
plan should start with the wish of the tenants who are going to live there. You
have to ask them, talk to them. What do they want? How many bedrooms? How many
bathrooms? En suite or not en suite? You have to talk to them. And secondly, you
have to have a professional architect. But this [constitution was not done by] a
professional architect. [They wrote] a plan without asking the tenant – the
owner of the house.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT:</STRONG></SPAN> This constitution does
give the military greater power than in the 1997 constitution, when the military
was clearly under civilian control, doesn't it?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS:</STRONG></SPAN> If this parliament does
not do anything to amend this constitution, I think the whole parliament is not
really faithful to their people. They come from them as democracy – they have to
amend this constitution.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT: </STRONG></SPAN>Are there specific things
you think need to be amended?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS: </STRONG></SPAN>So many things. .... The
major one is the respect of the people's power. You form a company –
shareholders are supposed to have the most power. ... Now the people have less
power, the structure is wrong. …Those key people who were involved in drafting
the constitution are not the democratic men. When the non-professional
architects write a plan without asking the owner, when the house is finished,
its not the house that you want to live in. </P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT: </STRONG></SPAN>You say are you are out of
politics, and don't want to be politically active any more. But many Thai voters
definitely associate the People's Power Party with you, and they voted for the
PPP because they thought it would be voting for you. So what responsibility do
you feel for the successful performance for the PPP government?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS: </STRONG></SPAN>If you remember on the day
that they dissolved the Thai Rak Thai party (Mr Thaksin's former ruling party),
I wrote a letter to the people, and I urged the former TRT politicians to pack
together and continue their political work for the benefit of the country and
the people. They did whatever I told them to do. [So] I felt obliged. … They
wanted me to support them because they said the people still loved me and [they]
wanted me to support them. So I supported [them]….But [in] a personal capacity –
not anything about politics. They wanted to continue the TRT ideology, so I felt
obliged to support them.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT: </STRONG></SPAN>And now that they are in
power don't you still feel some obligation to support them?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS: </STRONG></SPAN>No, it's finished. It's
their new party, new ideology. There might be some root from Thai Rak Thai. But
they have new leaders, new executive board, new Cabinet. I am not involved. ...
If you need me to give a lecture on my experience during my administration, or
my experience after being ousted and touring around the world, I can do it.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT:</STRONG></SPAN> But what about voters who
voted for the PPP thinking that they were somehow voting for you?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS:</STRONG></SPAN> Voters voted for the PPP
because I had been bullied too much, and they [didn't] believe one man can be
that bad – [that] the man that they had respected and loved can be that bad. ...
They just wanted to give me some justice, that's it.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT:</STRONG></SPAN> You don't feel that you
have some obligation to help the government?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS:</STRONG></SPAN> If I were to help the
government, I'd probably create more problems than [I solved.] Unity of command
is very important. The prime minister, and the leader is there. Wherever the
formal structure has been superseded by the informal structure, that will be bad
for that organisation to run perfectly. …I will concentrate on fighting my court
case.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT:</STRONG></SPAN> You picked Samak
[Sundaravej, the prime minister] and asked him to lead the PPP. How much contact
do you have with him?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS: </STRONG></SPAN>Seldom, just as a good
friend.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT: </STRONG></SPAN>The military froze your
family's $1.9bn in profits from the Shin Corp sale. But so far there has been no
case brought in connection with that deal. What do you see as the prospects for
getting that money back?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS: </STRONG></SPAN>It's really unlawful [what
they did.] But under [a] dictatorship you can do anything you want. That might
be the purpose of preventing me from using my money to help the PPP in the
election. Another thing is they don't want me to move around. But its very
unlawful, and we will file a case definitely [seeking the return of the
assets].</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT: </STRONG></SPAN>Do you feel confident you
will get it back?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS:</STRONG></SPAN> It's the asset we own
before we enter politics! In 1994, when I voluntarily declared my assets, [Shin
Corp] was there.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT:</STRONG></SPAN> Do you ever regret
deciding to sell Shin Corp at the time you did?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS:</STRONG></SPAN> It belonged to my
children. ... They may want cash for some other business; it's their right to
sell it. We already gave it to them.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT:</STRONG></SPAN> Maybe I should rephrase
and ask you, do regret that your children sold Shin Corp at the time that they
did?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS:</STRONG></SPAN> You know, in our family,
we are always looking ahead, looking forward. Things in the back are just the
lesson.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT: </STRONG></SPAN>When you do look back at
your tenure in power, many people put their trust in you, but a lot of them,
over time, turned away. Do you have any regrets from your tenure in office?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS: </STRONG></SPAN>No [elected Thai prime
minister] has ever stayed in office continuously as long as myself. And when you
stay long enough you make decisions every day. Some decisions this group likes,
or does not like. It may affect some groups. In my case, I tried to build the
country from the foundation, from the grassroots. But those on the top, they
always enjoy the benefit of weak government. ... They never build anything basic
or [lay] foundations. But we want to stay longer to build the whole nation from
the foundations [up]. They may think, 'when are you going to come to me? Not
yet.' So they may not like it. But actually when the foundation is strong, the
top will be very, very strong. But they cannot wait.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT: </STRONG></SPAN>Looking forward, what are
your plans?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS: </STRONG></SPAN>I have Manchester City,
and have the Thaicom Foundation, and I might be chairman of the [already
established] Shinawatra University.</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>FT: </STRONG></SPAN>Are you able to leave the
country?</P>
<P><SPAN class=bodystrong><STRONG>TS: </STRONG></SPAN>I can just ask the
permission from the court. ... I [would not run away] from the case. I could not
come [back to Thailand before last week] because I did not want to create
turmoil in the country, and the court knows that. [But once] I come, I will obey
whatever the court said.</P></DIV></DIV><BR clear=all></BODY></HTML>