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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dear Biff,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks very much for the reply, and for the
posting to the TLC list. Your long-term research in Mahasarakham puts you
in a position to approach some of these issues with exceptional clarity. And
I am not going to take issue, directly, with what you say. Nevertheless, a
number of observations. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>First, I would argue that Bunchu’s approach
to rural poverty was a comprehensive one, with firm ideological foundations and
a coherent design. In this regard, it differed considerably from Thaksin’s.
This point relates to two others. While the Bunchu-Khuekrit programs are
most commonly understood to consist essentially of “ngoen phan”,
they were in fact far more extensive. To use ngoen phan and its successors, all
of which were just as top-down as you state, to represent the entire Bunchu-Khuekrit
agenda is not to do it justice. And, while in the event political turmoil
in Bangkok meant that neither the Bunchu nor the Thaksin programs ever really
had a fair chance to prove its long-term value, one does have to wonder whether
the former may not have proved more sustainable than the latter.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>A fourth observation relates to the BAAC.
To be sure by 2001 many BAAC borrowers needed debt relief very badly. But
their indebtedness related above all to rather abrupt changes in the structure
of Thai agriculture, not least in the context of international competition, and
to the failure of the BAAC to keep up with these changes. Again, however,
the post-1975 BAAC and its use of borrowers’ groups were long and
justifiably seen by students of rural financial markets as a relative success. And
in the first decade or so of that success, Bunchu’s design for the channeling
of commercial-bank funds into the rural sector was the key factor.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Fifth, these observations notwithstanding,
rural people’s sense of “ownership” of programs intended for
their benefit is a phenomenon of great political importance. The
stress that you place on it is important for any understanding of recent events
in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Thailand</st1:place></st1:country-region>.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>For now, thanks again,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Mike Montesano<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Charles Keyes
[mailto:keyes@u.washington.edu] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, December 11, 2006
8:25 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Michael
Montesano</st1:PersonName>; ralbritt@olemiss.edu; justinm@ucr.edu;
tlc@lists.ucr.edu<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> jpatrick@wu.ac.th; Jirawat
Saengthong; mike.malley@yahoo.com; Ben Wilkinson; Samson Lim<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Tlc] Sondhi
Limthongkul in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Seattle</st1:place></st1:City></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Dear Mike,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> I realize that I never responded to this
comment of yours. There is a need for a study of all programs that were
supposed to benefit the rural poor going back to at least the 1960s with the
promotion of the government savings bank and the so-called Tambon Development
Program. These were almost totally ineffective in offering villagers
opportunities to make decisions about how government monies should be used to
improve their lives. I agree that the Kukrit government's <em><i><font
face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial'>ngoen phan</span></font></i></em>
program was a significant change and I take your point about the role Boonchu
played. However, I also know from my own study of the successor programs in the
late 1970s and early 1980s that villagers (whom I interviewed in several parts
of the NE and North and in Songkhla in the south) still found these to be
overly managed by the government, and especially by the district office. In
other words, most programs for the rural poor up to the Thaksin government were
manifestations of <em><i><font face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial'>haut
en bas</span></font></i></em> rather than ones which villagers felt they had
any input into. While it may be possible to find linkages at the policy
level between Kukrit/Boonchu and Thaksin, from the perspective of villagers --
based on my restudy in 2005-06 of a village in Mahasarakham where I had carried
out fieldwork first in 1963-64 -- it was only under the Thaksin regime that
villagers really felt that they had ownership of programs under the Tambon
Administrative Authority. I observed villagers deciding how loans should be
made and pushing strongly on representatives of the BAAC for debt relief. This
sense of ownership was the primary basis for rural support of TRT, not payments
by <em><i><font face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial'>huakhanaen</span></font></i></em>.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Biff (Charles Keyes)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b> <a
href="mailto:seamm@nus.edu.sg" title="seamm@nus.edu.sg">Michael Montesano</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:ralbritt@olemiss.edu" title="ralbritt@olemiss.edu">ralbritt@olemiss.edu</a>
; <a href="mailto:keyes@u.washington.edu" title="keyes@u.washington.edu">Charles
Keyes</a> ; <a href="mailto:justinm@ucr.edu" title="justinm@ucr.edu">justinm@ucr.edu</a>
; <a href="mailto:tlc@lists.ucr.edu" title="tlc@lists.ucr.edu">tlc@lists.ucr.edu</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:jpatrick@wu.ac.th" title="jpatrick@wu.ac.th">jpatrick@wu.ac.th</a>
; <a href="mailto:sjirawat@wu.ac.th" title="sjirawat@wu.ac.th">Jirawat
Saengthong</a> ; <a href="mailto:mike.malley@yahoo.com"
title="mike.malley@yahoo.com">mike.malley@yahoo.com</a> ; <a
href="mailto:BenWilkinson@fetp.vnn.vn" title="BenWilkinson@fetp.vnn.vn">Ben Wilkinson</a>
; <a href="mailto:sawan11@gmail.com" title="sawan11@gmail.com">Samson Lim</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Monday, November
20, 2006 12:57 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> RE: [Tlc] Sondhi
Limthongkul in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Seattle</st1:place></st1:City><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=4 color=navy face="Bookman Old Style"><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style";color:navy;font-weight:
bold'>Whatever one’s views of Thaksin or the <i><span style='font-style:
italic'>putsch</span></i> that has, at least for the present, ended his
premiership, it is high time to put an end to these very curious “</span></font></b><b><font
size=4 face="Bookman Old Style"><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style";
font-weight:bold'>Thaksin was the only politician in my memory who did anything
for the poor.<font color=navy><span style='color:navy'>” lines.
In the mid-1970s, Prime Minister Khuekrit Pramot and his finance
minister Bunchu Rotchanasathian introduced a raft of policies aimed at <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Thailand</st1:country-region></st1:place>’s
rural poor. In comparative perspective, the thoughtful design and frankly
progressive rationale (little surprise, in view of Bunchu’s very long
association with the Thai left) of these policies set a standard not equaled
till today. In the event, Khuekrit and Bunchu had only a brief period in
office to implement their policies. Nevertheless, many have endured, both
as specific measures (consider, for example, the Thai rural credit system) and
as examples to leaders like Thaksin and his advisors. As luck would
have it, too, last year saw the publication of Nawi Rangsiwararak’s
excellent <i><span style='font-style:italic'>Bon thanon sai kanmueang khong
Bunchu Rotchanasathian</span></i>. From this book one can learn much
about that way that a sophisticated, committed man engaged with the problem of
social inequality in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Thailand</st1:country-region></st1:place>
in an era neglected by all too many commentators on recent events.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=4 color=navy face="Bookman Old Style"><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style";color:navy;font-weight:
bold'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=4 color=navy face="Bookman Old Style"><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style";color:navy;font-weight:
bold'>Mike Montesano<o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><b><font size=4
color=navy face="Bookman Old Style"><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:
"Bookman Old Style";color:navy;font-weight:bold'>Bangkok</span></font></b></st1:City></st1:place><b><font
size=4 color=navy face="Bookman Old Style"><span style='font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:"Bookman Old Style";color:navy;font-weight:bold'><o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=4 color=navy face="Bookman Old Style"><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style";color:navy;font-weight:
bold'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> tlc-bounces@lists.ucr.edu
[mailto:tlc-bounces@lists.ucr.edu] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf
Of </span></b>ralbritt@olemiss.edu<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, November 17, 2006
8:47 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Charles Keyes;
justinm@ucr.edu; tlc@lists.ucr.edu<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Tlc] Sondhi
Limthongkul in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Seattle</st1:City></st1:place></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Thanks
very much for thi, Biff. There must be some voices that give lie to the
oft-repeated charge that rural people are not sufficiently competent to
exercise the vote. For all his faults, Thaksin was the only politician in my
memory who did anything for the poor. More seriously, what I find is that much
of what is taking place is largely a reaction to the sense of loss of power and
prestige among the traditional elites (this includes intellectual elites). For
example:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>A few
years ago, I heard Prawasi Wasi give a talk (in English) in which he said that
the problem for Thailand was that people aspired too much, that they should go
back to planting their rice fields and be happy. I have held him in contempt
ever since, but he is honored by the intellectuals;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Thirayuth's
comment in March is another blow to democracy: "What is worrisome is that
Thaksin has mobilized the poor and gotten them involved in politics....And what
is worrisome about that is that the poor vote differently from the middle
class." So, he loses all credibility in my book.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I must
say that Thongchai and Giles Ungpakhorn seem to be among the few Thai
intellectuals who can think clearly about the issue. They both suffer from
taking rather courageous positions. I hope that we can provide them with
sufficient support to continue.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>RBA<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
> On November 14, 2006, Khun Sondhi Limthongkul spoke on<br>
> the campus of the <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">University</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName
w:st="on">Washington</st1:PlaceName> in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Seattle</st1:City></st1:place><br>
> about the Thai political situation. His visit was arranged<br>
> by Thai students at the University. An audience of<br>
> approximately 350 people attended the event; most were<br>
> Thai by origin who live in the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Seattle</st1:City></st1:place>
area, although some<br>
> came from as far away as <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Vancouver</st1:City>,
<st1:State w:st="on">British Columbia</st1:State></st1:place>.<br>
> There was also a scattering of non-Thai in the audience,<br>
> including the former <st1:country-region w:st="on">US</st1:country-region>
Ambassador to <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Thailand</st1:country-region></st1:place>,
Darryl<br>
> Johnson, who is currently a lecturer at the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName
w:st="on">Jackson</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">School</st1:PlaceName></st1:place><br>
> of International Studies at the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceType w:st="on">University</st1:PlaceType>
of <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Washington</st1:PlaceName></st1:place>.<br>
> Khun Sondhi first spoke in English for about 45<br>
> minutes and then took questions from the audience for<br>
> another 20 minutes. He then turned the microphone over to<br>
> Khun Karun Saingam, a former MP and former senator from<br>
> Buriram. Khun Karun spoke in Thai for about 45 minutes.<br>
> After a break, Khun Sondhi then spoke and answered<br>
> questions in Thai for another hour.<br>
> A few Thai students, led by Khun Anusorn Unno, a PhD<br>
> candidate in anthropology at the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceType
w:st="on">University</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Washington</st1:PlaceName></st1:place>,<br>
> distributed a handout in both Thai and English, entitled<br>
> "9 Myths about the September 19, 2006, Coup." Although a<br>
> brief dispute arose because the organizers demanded that<br>
> the protestors not have their signs in the foyer outside<br>
> the lecture hall which had been booked for the event, this<br>
> was resolved when the protestors moved outside the front<br>
> door of the hall. A photo of Khun Sondhi, Khun Karun, and<br>
> Khun Anusorn appeared with the story published the next<br>
> day in the online edition of the Thai newspaper The<br>
> Manager. (For this story, see<br>
> http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000141271).<br>
> Khun Sondhi said that while he was not happy with the<br>
> coup, he was very happy it had happened. He reiterated the<br>
> reasons he has presented many times before about why<br>
> former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra had so abused<br>
> power that only a coup could remove him. He said that if<br>
> the coup had not happened on September 19th there would<br>
> have been bloodshed the following day in a confrontation<br>
> between those attending a rally to protest his continuing<br>
> in office and Thaksin's supporters.<br>
> He argued that there cannot be electoral democracy in<br>
> <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Thailand</st1:country-region></st1:place>
such as is found in the West because most people<br>
> outside the middle class lack sufficient knowledge to<br>
> understand how power can be abused. The rural people only<br>
> vote, he claimed, for those who pay them either directly<br>
> through party organizers (hua khanaen) or indirectly<br>
> through the populist programs. He compared the populist<br>
> programs of Thaksin to those of Peron in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Argentina</st1:country-region></st1:place>. Khun<br>
> Sondhi said that in the future he himself will work only<br>
> with the middle class who have sufficient education to<br>
> truly understand how populist politicians can abuse power.<br>
> He added that while the middle class is found primarily in<br>
> <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Bangkok</st1:City></st1:place>,
it is also represented in the urban areas of each<br>
> province.<br>
> Khun Sondhi said that politicians of all parties in<br>
> <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Thailand</st1:country-region></st1:place>
are characterized by kilet, a Buddhist term that<br>
> in Thai means greed for power, wealth and fulfillment of<br>
> sexual passion. He was quite dismissive of a written<br>
> constitution as the basis for governance in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Thailand</st1:country-region></st1:place>. He<br>
> said that only if the people have a spirit of democracy<br>
> can democracy truly exist. Without a constitution, the<br>
> only institution that can assure good governance is the<br>
> monarchy. He said that 'royal prerogative'<br>
> (phraratchamnat) is deeply respected and embodies the<br>
> spirit of the nation.<br>
> The audience was generally very receptive to Khun<br>
> Sondhi's interpretations.<br>
> My own assessment is not so positive. I am aware that<br>
> I am not a Thai, but I have been involved in studying Thai<br>
> society, particularly in rural areas, for many decades. I<br>
> find very disturbing Khun Sondhi's assumption that rural<br>
> people are ignorant and are not capable of making good<br>
> political choices unless they are 'bought'. I have found<br>
> just the opposite. Rural people today are not the peasants<br>
> of yesteryear and it is a myth that they are ignorant<br>
> (ngo). Villagers today are very much aware that unless<br>
> political leaders are chosen who will respond to their<br>
> needs for government services such as healthcare,<br>
> education and government-sponsored loan funds they will<br>
> continue to be very disadvantaged in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Thailand</st1:country-region></st1:place>'s capitalist<br>
> economy. Khun Sondhi's position seems to me to contribute<br>
> to the growing class division of Thai society. I also<br>
> found his dismissal of a written constitutional basis of<br>
> governance and emphasis on 'royal prerogative' to, in<br>
> effect, turn back the clock on the governing of <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Thailand</st1:country-region></st1:place><br>
> to the sys tem that existed prior to the revolution of<br>
> 1932. <br>
> I am happy, nonetheless, that <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Seattle</st1:City></st1:place>
and the<br>
> <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceType w:st="on">University</st1:PlaceType>
of <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Washington</st1:PlaceName></st1:place> should have
been put on the map<br>
> of Thai politics through Khun Sondhi's visit.<br>
> <br>
> Charles (Biff) Keyes<br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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> Tlc@lists.ucr.edu<br>
> http://lists.ucr.edu/mailman/listinfo/tlc<br>
> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
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